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11 January 2011 @ 03:48 pm
cos i promised sam  
having a convo on Sam's journal about Harry/Ginny and i recognised it'd get ranty and unpleasant so i'm putting it here cos those kinds of things should be owned. this is not really about H/G ship but more about how it was treated in canon (i also have fanon issues but that's something else entirely) and why i don't like it based on principle. i'm not trying to bash the ship or characters, this is more like airing frustration and rage over poor writing. i also really need a Women of Potter Re-Affirmation because anyone not named Hermione or Minerva got shafted. yeah, that's a sexist remark for a reason (see, ranty and bitter).

Mind you, I did not read anything after OotP properly nor have I retained much from it because I read those ages ago and only recently got my hands on some of the books. My brain, it has rust.

Ginny as a character in an of herself I. LOVE. Starting from the beginning she's the cutesy hero-worshiping girl and that's fine, for that period in time. Then CoS rolls around AND SHE WAS POSSESSED BY TOM FUCKING RIDDLE AND SURVIVED. Shit. How can I not love that? She comes through that, in her first year mind you, of school and gets real. Buuuut, we never really get to see this because Jo fails her women. I construct for myself this girl who is bamfy. Bad ass. Fierce. Strong. This girl who recognises quickly how scary the world really is and gets down with getting shit done because she's SEEN and FELT what Voldemort's true intentions are and knows it must be stopped. She's willing to stand because it's right. Yet, as I will always lament, WE NEVER GET TO SEE THIS FULL FORM. Here, at their very disposal is this girl who knows the inner workings of The Villain and is tucked away, disregarded. SHE'S LIKE YOUR BIGGEST FREAKING ASSET IN THIS DAMN WAR. TAKE NOTICE!

She knows Harry plays a big role in the final outcome of Voldemort's defeat, this is a contributory factor to my hero worship issue, but he fucking saved her life. She should be grateful. I understand this. I do not like when this serves as an entire basis of Tru Wuv. Just. NO. What? There has to be more than that. More than being indebted to the person who saved your life and who's poster you've had on your wall since you were nine and talk to it every night before you turn in about how hard your life is and no one understands you because you are the only girl in a family of boys... Now, I'm not too savvy with book canon but this scenario doesn't seem that unlikely to me coming from a movie canon standpoint. That's all we ever get to see on screen. Ginny being shy and reserved in Harry's presence and then all moony-eyed over Harry later. She isn't allowed to see Harry beyond the titles he's garnered over the years. We get little to no interactions that could contribute to building a solid foundation of ship possibly because she's never allowed to have a conversation with Harry outside the presence of The Trio. However, when they are alone it's awkward and forced. I understand being smitten with someone and not finding the right words to say because hello, nervous, but Ginny/Harry conversations and moments of connection are handled with such a heavy hand of authorial manipulations. I like it when I don't see the man behind the curtain pulling the levers and blowing smoke up my ass thankyouverymuch.

On to Harry's side. I have issue with how Ginny was treated as an object to attain instead of a person to share a life with. In JKR's attempt to create 'romance' all we have is evidence of sexual urges. Ginny's gorgeous. Ginny's lips. Ginny's hair. Ginny's smile. Ginny's skin. Yes, you are a dumb boy and that should be part of it, but Ginny never means anything more to Harry than an object of desire or distraction. He's too busy with um, fighting a damn war and trying not to die. That whole biggest asset in this war thing? THAT could have been a bit of the foundation for them being a ship that I could get on. They have a commonality that NO ONE ELSE shares. Harry shares relationships with other kindred spirits (Luna, Neville, Dumbledore) but none of them know the depth of mania in Voldemort. Ginny. Does. It is something not even Ron or Hermione can understand. And while it may be a fucked up bit of bonding, you cannot deny the importance of being understood, of finding empathy. Part of the human condition is finding that person who gets it. You don't have to explain. You look across the room and see in their eyes that something is off or something is great. I don't get any of that with how this ship was constructed. I do however, totally get that with Neville/Ginny or Harry/Hermione or hell, even Harry/Luna.

Okay, I'm done. My feelings. You have them.
Current Music: Eighty-Four Thousand Hymns ~ Hammock
borg_princess: snape-doesnotapproveborg_princess on January 12th, 2011 03:47 am (UTC)
Ginny. *sighs* I never thought H/G would become canon, a) I thought JKR was too smart to actually make any ships canon and disappoint so many fans (ha! how naive I was) and b) because Ginny was a NONENTITY.

My issue with her is not so much the hero-worship, because I think it's possible for a kid to outgrow that with exposure, as she has been over all the times he's hung out at her place, but the inconsistency in her writing. Ginny in CoS was a shy, insecure, lonely little girl whose best friend was a magical diary. Because nobody else had time for her, aside from her interfering, pompous um, no, caring, compassionate brother, Percy. She was so attached to this diary that even after she realized it was DARK MAGIC, hence, BAD NEWS, she still went and stole it back and continued talking to Tom. Hmm.

But somehow (and this relates tangentially to you comment on her being something to attain), that girl magically becomes sassy, brassy, popular, the most beautiful and admired girl at Hogwarts. What. So, finally Harry notices her, and to be good enough for him, she has a personality overhaul- from the more quiet and thoughtful girl, she turns into a vicious, violent harpy- and her social status is significantly upgraded. So that she can 'deserve' Harry. (this is why he and Luna could never happen, she's an oddball, a social outcast, def not cool enough for Harry!)

As for a bond between them...yeah, no, not seeing it. Like you said, she has been scarred by the Dark Lord on a personal level, she can understand him in a way nobody else can, but when do we ever seeing her using this empathy to help him? Aside from that one snarky comment when she reminds him he's not the only one who's suffered mental invasion (which he FORGOT), it's never really had an impact on their relationship. And yet that's what every shipper or pro-H/G fan points to! 'She gets him in a way nobody else can!' Well, I'd be more impressed if I saw that dynamic at work, but um, all I remember is Ginny defending Harry by saying it was okay for him to nearly kill another student, stfu, Hermione, if he wants to be violent, it's okay. >:[

From your comments, it seems you don't like movie!Ginny, but I have to say, she's a hell of an improvement on the book!Ginny I loathe and abhor. >:[
Sunny: HP o childrensunny_serenity on January 12th, 2011 09:26 pm (UTC)
ILU. Ginny being a nonentity I never thought of associating that with her because I had her so built up in my own head, you know? But YES. SHE IS. The way she was turned from a shy lonely girl into a vicious, violent harpy... whut? That's a huge leap and bound. How am I supposed to believe that? Also, I thought her and Hermione were like, friends... not bitter rivals. WTH?

And Harry. Poor boy kind of got blindsided by this as well. His is character being only fascinated with the popular girl? Um, correct me if I'm wrong but he hates popularity or at least hates being noticed as The Boy Who Lived and just wants to be Harry. Himself. Just a boy/man/person with no expectations of heroism.

What you said about this transformation into, basically a bitchy snippy woman I completely agree with. (and no wonder she's portrayed as a harpy in so much fic) What kind of message does that send to girls? 'Be a bitch boys will love you.' HOW DOES THAT EVEN MAKE YOU A PERSON? WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE JO? I hate when women subversively attack womanhood. What is this? As a woman and a mother to a girl I would think that Rowling might put more thought and stock into these kinds of things. I think therein lies my biggest issue with this series, the author. OH. I AM SO CONFLICTED WITH MY FEELINGS FOR JOANNE. GAH. fangirling is haaaard... hold me Annie.
Sam: h/h; i think i might have inhaled youneverpretend on January 12th, 2011 04:54 am (UTC)

I wish this girl had more development. I hate that JKR makes me fill so many blanks on my own. Show don't tell.

On to Harry's side. I have issue with how Ginny was treated as an object to attain instead of a person to share a life with.

This bother's me so much. Harry Potter is an emotional idiot but he is also better than this. What is this relationship. It's a monster in his chest/the boner in his pants. In a series about love, I can't find any of it in my hero's romantic relationship.

Harry/Luna. Neville/Ginny. Would have vastly preferred these. JFC Rowling, why do you make these decisions.
Sunny: HP pretty babiessunny_serenity on January 12th, 2011 09:48 pm (UTC)
Show don't tell.

Yep. Actions speak louder than words darling Jo.

I KNOW. WHAT IS THAT? Monster chest/boner pants. Just chuck out all traits that make me love Harry why don'tcha! It's all about his penis and the h3r0!spermZ in the end. *facepalm*
alltuesdayalltuesday on January 12th, 2011 04:14 pm (UTC)
This post made A LOT of sense!

I read the entire HP series and have watched all movies that has been released. For the reasons you've stated I love Ginny as well, she started out cute then became badass and her hero-worship never annoyed me...so I was okay with Harry/Ginny. But after reading your post I realized how undeveloped the relationship was in the books (and consequently in the movies). The ship had so much potential to be awesome but JK failed in delivering it. You're right, the way it was written was more of sexual urges and she failed to construct a real/believable connection between them. Towards the end of the book I found myself rooting a bit for Harry/Luna, probably because of the substantial moments they have.

Whoa long comment :P
Sunny: True Pam BAMFsunny_serenity on January 12th, 2011 09:52 pm (UTC)
Thanks. I'm attempting to come across as mature and objective instead of my usual flaily mcflailerson self.

I don't mind hero-worship when in it's proper place but it was used as a foundation for a relationship. It's never a good thing to fall in love with a reputation/celebrity status VS a being who is a person. That's what I was all 'WTF JK' about.

Long comments are always welcome.
Sophie: hermionesarahsoph on January 13th, 2011 04:47 am (UTC)
I always felt it was implied that Ginny was a pretty badass character whenever she wasn't around. In Deathly Hallows, when she's stuck at Hogwarts under Voldemort's control, she can't just sit around and do nothing. She gets up to mischief, she tries to make things as difficult for them as possible, she tries to steal the sword because she knows it's important. And then she's around Harry, she becomes a bit of a nothing character, existing only in terms of Harry. She's there for Harry to lust over, there for him to protect. And I think she gets short-changed more in the movies than in the books.

(All this talk makes me want to see good fic about Ginny, because argh, all that angst of having been possessed and then fighting on with Neville and Luna.)

I think JKR decided that certain relationships had to happen and that they were so obvious to her that she forgot that she had to sell them to the readers. Because you're right, there is so much possibility for Harry and Ginny to bond over being in the mind of Voldemort, but it just never happens. And I could have even been sold on the Ron/Hermione relationship, but it never felt like he matured enough when it came to how he related to her.
Sunny: HP crapiloguesunny_serenity on January 15th, 2011 03:54 am (UTC)
Well thank you for filling in those blanks for me... I never read DH properly or all the way through... yeah, I couldn't handle all the clunky anvils of 'romance' JKR inserted. Annie was saying how Ginny is a NONENTITY through most of the books and that was a revelation for me because in canon, she had a complete overhaul in character/traits and it was all, HUH? In the movies she's just, you know, around... *shrug*

Good fic is hard to find... there's the Potter!Wars ficathon going on now at anythingbutgrey's and there's some fantastic character stuff there that helped me to reclaim my love for The Women of Potter. Cho Chang, who previously I was all 'meh' about and Lavender Brown and some Ginny prompts I hope get filled.

I think her sticking to her epilogue before having even completed her story kinda screwed her in the end, counted her chickens and all. There's been some speculation that Ron was intended to get killed off and she didn't know what to do with him so she stalled his development for a long time... I don't know, I LOVE JKR for creating this amazeballs world that we love and play in but kind of hate her for not being consistent with her creation. Hence, the lopsidedness of it all...