?

Log in

No account? Create an account
 
 
24 December 2010 @ 10:25 pm
appropriate icon is appropriate  
I never understood text posts on tumblr until the ship war started flaring up again. THIS is an interesting POV. People can be so awesome sometimes...

Now that I've finished re-watching GoF for the millionth time (holy cow these are some long credits), I wanna re-read Vox Corporis. What is this disease. But oh, the dreaded re-watch of OotP, which technically I already watched earlier this week out of order on purpose just so there wasn't a bad taste in my mouth. Yet, it amuses me that with all some of the really important bits that stood out to me (Hermione getting cut down in the ministry, Harry's freaking out about it, Hermione calling Harry out on being douchey, McG being a BAMFY HBIC and other awesomely awesome H/Hr & The DA stuff) we still get a fair decent amount of unintentional shippy moments. NONE OF THE OTHERS HAD NOTICED A THING. POTTEEEEEEER!!!

I'll resume the 30 Day Potter meme when I'm done house sitting in a computerless home. What is this.

This post brought to you by the technological advancement known as Blackberry. ;)
 
 
 
(Deleted comment)
Sunny: HP rock onsunny_serenity on December 27th, 2010 06:14 am (UTC)
Lovely. Right back atcha babe.

(Deleted comment)
Sunny: WW CJ Josh tacklehugsunny_serenity on December 27th, 2010 05:55 pm (UTC)
LOL. That's because we awesome like no two sides have ever awesomed before. How's that for bi-partisan cooperation?
(Deleted comment)
Sunny: HP Hermionesunny_serenity on December 27th, 2010 07:54 pm (UTC)
Oh, what?! I forgot about that... Fine, I will fall on my free love dirty hippie bong and try to reform the left wing from the inside out. But that doesn't mean I'll like it.
madderbradmadderbrad on December 25th, 2010 10:35 pm (UTC)
That's an excellent tumblr (I barely know what this 'tumblr' thing is all about?!???!!) article, love it. This bit rules:

When I read about the interactions between H/Hr, I don’t feel the intervention of JKR. When I read R/Hr, I can feel the author butting in. A sign of good writing is when you don’t feel like something is mechanic, as if the writer is mechanically tweaking your emotions as you’re going.

Perfect. Because that's exactly how it goes in the books; OH LOOK THEY'RE FIGHTING IT'S TRUE LUV. Or even more horribly artificial/transparent - OH LOOK THEY'RE JEALOUS IT'S TRUE LURVE. Because jealousy is practically the only mechanism Rowling employed to show the romantic love between her 'soul mates'. Ron's jealous of Krum, of McLaggin, of Harry. Harry's monster's attraction to Ginny is spawned out of jealousy of Dean. Book 6 is full of puerile games of spite and jealousy between Hermione and Ron. And almost every one of Ginny's few appearances in book 7 have her exhibiting jealousy of anything female that might get close to Harry.

Seriously, Rowling's idea of 'love' leaves me with a horrible feeling because 98% of it, as written in her books, is expressed as jealousy, which not an attractive emotion at all. Ugh.

But, secondly, we KNOW that this feeling of the author 'butting in' is EXACTLY on the mark, because that's exactly what Rowling did outside of her actual writing! All those many, many interviews where she instructed her readers in how the books should be interpreted. "Go back and re-read". "I wrote anvils for you". You don't think Harry and Ginny are soul mates? Oh, they are, because I'm telling you I wrote them that way, really and truly!

If Sam saw the canon's stilted prose as the author 'butting in' then she saw the author for *exactly* how she is, as we all saw her behave outside of the books!

I wanna re-read Vox Corporis.

That's a weird story. Since you've already read it I can discuss it ... it's an epic work and excellent in one way as a novel which really turns on the 'romance' between the GoF aged Harry and Hermione. It's lovely to read in that respect, in how their friendship and romance is fleshed out. Oh, a few places where it got too saccharine or yucky for me, but overall very tender and sweet.

On the other hand, though ... I got frustrated because Harry comes over as extremely lethargic, as a romantic puppet. We never know why Hermione loves Harry SO MUCH, she just ... does. It's presented to us as an axiom, from page one, which I found very frustrating. At least that's my recollection of it. Hermione loves Harry to pieces ... because she just does. And he seemed to be written as a life-size doll to hug and kiss and love, but not doing much in return. I kept on asking WHY DOES HERMIONE LOVE HARRY SO MUCH, TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL ELSE? Because he seemed so lifeless, so limp in return, it squicked me a little.

That's my recollection anyway. And the Voldemort plot arc was rushed at the end, but oh well.

Merry Christmas!
borg_princess: hermione-feelborg_princess on December 26th, 2010 07:54 am (UTC)
Ohai, you! So weird to see you out and about beyond DTCL. :P

Seriously, Rowling's idea of 'love' leaves me with a horrible feeling because 98% of it, as written in her books, is expressed as jealousy, which not an attractive emotion at all. Ugh.

And yeah, ugh, I've ranted about this so often, but it bears repeating- JEALOUSY DOES NOT TRUE LOVE MAKE. Jealousy =/= romance. Just...argh! It frustrates me, because I'm the one who loves bickering couples, heck, show me a guy and girl that fight all the time and I'm almost guaranteed to ship them solely based on that (the new Camelot that's coming out? Already shipping Merlin and Morgana, 'coz that's how I roll) but it just doesn't work with Ron and Hermione. Because as opposed to my Foe Yay ships, they were friends from the start of the series, so they're supposed to care about each other's feelings and yet they don't. They weren't pitted against each other and having to overcome differences before learning to recognize each other's worth and value their strengths and all that good stuff that comes of Foe Yay ships- yet even though they've been friends for seven years, I STILL struggle to find scenes which show they appreciate and respect each other!

Ron makes fun of Hermione's interest in academics- unless he needs her to write his essays for him- and she is forever nagging him to shape up and become someone better that she can justify being with, and thinks so little of his quidditch abilities that she hexes another player to get him onto the team. (contrast that with Lavender who simply offers him affectionate support and who always accepted him as he was instead of needing him to change first to please her)

And I headdesk at all the shippers who insist that their fighting is all in good fun- I enjoy witty banter with a couple that has fun tossing zingers back and forth, but they are not at that stage. They say hurtful things to each other and wind up getting upset and crying and storming off and not speaking to each other for ages!

I find it ridiculous how people cut down the potential for H/Hr precisely because they don't hurt each other the way Ron and Hermione do. So because they're there for each other, provide emotional support and comfort and are so easy with showing affection through hugs and don't have spats over petty things...that's supposed to be the grand proof that they could NEVER work as a couple? That they didn't stand a chance? What?!

/rant

almost every one of Ginny's few appearances in book 7 have her exhibiting jealousy of anything female that might get close to Harry

OMG, do you remember which post it was where I was saying that Ginny should get upset with Harry for having the Marauder's Map and not thinking to give it to her so they could keep safe and you made this hilarious comment from Harry's pov about how selfish she was in refusing to let Cho show him to the common room at a time when all their lives were at risk? I can't find it, and it was just really amusing to me...

Edited at 2010-12-26 07:56 am (UTC)
madderbradmadderbrad on December 26th, 2010 09:03 am (UTC)
Ohai, you! So weird to see you out and about beyond DTCL. :P

I don't get out much, it's true. :-( But I'm trying to catch up with my friends list today. I think sunny_serenity comprises about 95% of it. :-)

(Certainly in animated gifs, if not in number of posts! I love her HP picture posts/collections.)

they're supposed to care about each other's feelings and yet they don't.

Yep. A bickering couple is supposed to have *something* in addition to the animosity. Something to balance the negativity. A yin to the yang. Be it a positive force, like friendship, or some other counterpoint, like your Foe Yay (!!!) arrangements. Something that makes the readers WANT the fighting to stop so the other force can become apparent and outstanding issues be resolved.

But Rowling was lazy and didn't give us anything like that with Ron and Hermione. They orbit around Harry so we're supposed to fill in the blanks and do her work for her. She shows all the fighting and jealousy, yes, but it's left to us to fill in the blanks and assume "oh, they must like each other" and thus work out the other side of the equation. And from that then proceed to approve the whole arrangement.

Pfah! Rowling fails Literature 101.

I find it ridiculous how people cut down the potential for H/Hr precisely because they don't hurt each other the way Ron and Hermione do.

Yet those same people will then turn around and support Harry/Ginny, which *isn't* all bickering and fighting. THESE PEOPLE, THEY HAVE NO SENSE.

OMG, do you remember which post it was where I was saying that Ginny should get upset with Harry for having the Marauder's Map and not thinking to give it to her so they could keep safe and you made this hilarious comment from Harry's pov about how selfish she was in refusing to let Cho show him to the common room at a time when all their lives were at risk? I can't find it, and it was just really amusing to me...

It's amusing - and sad - how quick so many canon fans are to try and forget that scene. Ginny was an ugly little girl.

I think the post is this one here.
borg_princess: emma-myheartborg_princess on December 26th, 2010 10:20 am (UTC)
Well, if you've gotta pick one journal to catch up on, Sunny's would be the best pick! ^_^ I was actually thinking of how much you'd enjoy her H/Hr posts and then it turns out you two are friends, lol!

And dude, I have totally been stealing all her gifs.

Photobucket

Just. GUH. ♥

A bickering couple is supposed to have *something* in addition to the animosity. Something to balance the negativity. A yin to the yang. Be it a positive force, like friendship, or some other counterpoint, like your Foe Yay (!!!) arrangements. Something that makes the readers WANT the fighting to stop so the other force can become apparent and outstanding issues be resolved.

Okay, this? Is amazing. I wish I could express myself as eloquently as you! That is exactly where JKR fell short. She was all negativity with hardly any moments to show that they do actually like each other. I get that kids are confused by their emotions but:

a) I doubt they immediately crushed on each other from PS/SS onwards, which means there are a couple years there where their bickering is not due to hormones/inability to handle their feelings and it's just general irritation with each other and clashing because of their different approaches to school and life

b) if two kids were literally fighting ALL THE TIME, that's all we ever see, I seriously doubt this would become a lasting and healthy relationship. The movies did a better job of portraying their relationship because we saw softer moments between them where they clearly were reacting to each other as boy-and-girl-who-kinda-like-like-each-other and they smoothed out the rougher edges, but the books...it's just so spiteful and dismissive of each other.

And then in HBP, they just make each other worse. I love Hermione, but she gets character assassinated in HBP, I'm just so outraged at what JKR did to her. I hate that instead of making her feel better about herself and become a better person, Ron instead motivates her to plunge to the depths of misery and commit really selfish horrible acts, and he, likewise, is completely self-aborbed and toys with another girl's affections just to make her unhappy for months on end. They basically bring out the worst in each other! Why would I cheer for them to be together?!
borg_princess: emma-dan-high fiveborg_princess on December 26th, 2010 10:20 am (UTC)
She shows all the fighting and jealousy, yes, but it's left to us to fill in the blanks and assume "oh, they must like each other" and thus work out the other side of the equation.

Exactly. A lot of shippers say they enjoy each other's company and spend lots of good times together (when? One canon occasion is when they go to Hogsmeade together...only because Harry can't go, but when he sneaks off and joins them, guess what they're talking about? Him! Totally seems to me that he's the only thing holding them together) but we're left to imagine that it happens and that there are occasions when they do not fight and Ron makes her happy and she doesn't nag him and they actually get along. You can't conduct the romance of a canon couple off-page and expect everyone to fall in line and root for them when what we're actually given is a lot of petty fighting over nothing.

(Aside: speaking of foe yay, my newest ship is Megamind/Roxanne and I'm just squeeing over this post which showed an earlier sketch of the two main characters- this isn't in the movie, but still!



To quote the poster, 'I LOVE this courteous romantic villain stuff! Kidnap a girl at gunpoint, tie her up and invite her to a classy dinner while your robot plays the double bass. How many of you want to write read that story right now? Hands up!'

I love Foe Yay because you get the delicious tension with the bickering- and not over petty things like homework, but for instance, one person being a villain and kidnapping the other all the time, lol- but because they're not friends, it's okay that they insult each other, they don't owe each other any courtesies (unlike Ron and Hermione, whose friendship spans years and he constantly insults her and is just thoughtless and idiotic and has to frakking CONSULT A BOOK to figure out what she'd like! Oh, nice, compare Hermione to any random generic girl instead of using what you've observed over the years and tailoring your attempts to woo her accordingly!), and then over time and due to some crucial event that requires them to co-operate, they begin to see each other through different eyes and find admirable aspects about the other person and eventually, there is respect and even affection and then friendship and then... ^_^)

Yet those same people will then turn around and support Harry/Ginny, which *isn't* all bickering and fighting. THESE PEOPLE, THEY HAVE NO SENSE.

But- but Ginny picks fights with other people for no reason! The student body fears her Bat-Bogey Hexes! And Harry, he's destined to battle the Dark Lord! So...they fight people...? There's that in common...? Lol, talking about 'show, don't order fans to buy into interview canon what isn't in the books', how about H/G? It's one things for R/Hr fans to say 'they spend time together we don't see because Harry's the narrator and he's not with them when they're being romantic', but how pathetic is it that the main character's romance is barely fleshed-out? The series is from his frakking POV, and we STILL have no idea what his relationship with Ginny is like and why he even likes her and what their interactions are about... Sorry, JKR, 'happy afternoons down by the lake' doesn't cut it. (also a 'hard blazing look' as a precursor to their momentous first kiss? Seriously?)

It's amusing - and sad - how quick so many canon fans are to try and forget that scene. Ginny was an ugly little girl.

I KNOOOW. And she didn't even have the excuse of a Horcrux to blame it on!

Photobucket

Also, ILU! Thanks for finding that post/thread. I just cackled all over again. MY LIFE WAS ON THE LINE!! AND THE FREEDOM OF THE ENTIRE WIZARDING WORLD! And your ONLY CONTRIBUTION was 'DON'T LET CHO HELP HARRY TO SURVIVE'?" EPIIIIC. *dies laughing*
madderbradmadderbrad on December 26th, 2010 12:23 pm (UTC)
First things first ... WHAT A BRILLIANT GIF!! I find it hard to concentrate on a response when Emma is continually blowing kisses at me ...

Uhm, where was I? Oh, right.

I doubt they immediately crushed on each other from PS/SS onwards, which means there are a couple years there where their bickering is not due to hormones/inability to handle their feelings and it's just general irritation with each other and clashing because of their different approaches to school and life.

That's a great point and I quite agree. I don't know what the R/Hr fundamentalist position is. I know I've come up against H/G fan zombies who have stated "please. I could see it was going to be H/G from the start"; based mainly on Ginny's waving goodbye to her brothers means she was Harry's soul mate, you see. :-) I don't know what the extreme R/Hr position is. But you are so, so right; we surely have to assume there was *some* period where even Rowling wouldn't have the gall to say THEY ARE SOUL MATES, and in that period they were extremely mismatched. AND WE NEVER SEE THEM GROW OUT OF THIS. At the end of the series Hermione still rolls her eyes over quidditch, Ron knows she doesn't trust him to pass a simple driving test, they disagree on basic questions of ethics and so on.

And then in HBP, they just make each other worse. I love Hermione, but she gets character assassinated in HBP, I'm just so outraged at what JKR did to her.

To tell you the truth I'm not sure where I stand on canon!Hermione, since she was treated so horribly in book 6. And was satisfied to be married to Ron in the epilogue. It's not a surprise that so many authors, even these days, kick off their stories from around book 5 or earlier. Before Rowling dusted the cobwebs off her 20 year old plan, recalled that book 6 was supposed to be the one where the kids play stupid games and reigned Hermione back in to be under her thumb. :-(

So...they fight people...? There's that in common...?

Yes, I guess that's something else that Harry and Ginny have in common. :-) But they don't fight with the same results; Harry defeats dark lords (with roll-of-the-dice uber wands); while Ginny breaks her ankle and otherwise just provides target practice for death eaters. :-)

Like I said, I've debated the ships with canon disciples, and one minute they're all "Hermione and Ron are opposites and complement each other, each has strengths the other lacks" (bull, IMO) and then the next when the topic turns to H/G the same folk are telling you "Harry and Ginny are suited to each other because they have the same interests (quidditch, and ... uhm, quidditch), they share the same sense of humour" and so forth. One pair fights over their differences, the other pair bond over their similarities ... but flip the reasons/excuses around and each canon couple is immediately invalid by exactly the same reasoning. Ha!

how pathetic is it that the main character's romance is barely fleshed-out?

That's one of the other defences of the pro-Jo fan. Yeah, okay, but Rowling did insert some romance ... and what she did write (a) doesn't stand up without requiring instructions from the author on how to read it, and (b) is pretty ugly and unsatisfactory to boot.

I haven't seen Megamind yet, looking forward to it.

If I can tear my eyes away from that animated gif, that is.
Sunny: HP high fivessunny_serenity on December 27th, 2010 05:51 am (UTC)
ILUSFM! WORD. JUST, WORD. *steals very distracting kissy gif* whaaaat?!
Sunny: HP closersunny_serenity on December 27th, 2010 05:25 am (UTC)
Excellent article is excellent. Your points about jealousy = love in JK's mind is one of the primary reasons I dislike all these ships. There is no substance to any of them. Their foundations are rooted in selfish and malicious behaviours. Not exactly traits that I'd consider to be love, REAL love. Yes, I agree that love can make you do stupid asinine things but most of these reactions out of spite and jealousy make me wanna throw my hands up... Just. WHAT?!

RE: Vox Corporis. It was my very first HP fic so it holds a special place for me. I really enjoyed the time she took to fill in all those human moments between the two and her characterisations of Hermione's family. YAY liberties! However, I do agree with the lack of agency Harry seems to have in the story but I chalked it up to his PTSD state of mind after GoF. The lack of urgency in the Voldy plot was sacrificed for ship but hey, I can deal with it.
Sam: xo; the only shape i'd pray toneverpretend on December 26th, 2010 03:14 am (UTC)
That Tumblr post is flawless. I just sat here nodding my head as I read. Ron/Hermione always felt so forced to me. And like that person said, I am all for bickering couples with sexual tension - my OTP after Harry/Hermione is Chuck and Blair, I mean come on. But Ron/Hermione just didn't feel right. It wasn't ~witty banter - it was personal attacks at worst, and annoying sparring that made them look like immature assholes at best. I think even Harry most of the time was just like, will you two just shut up for five seconds for the love of god. Which was how I reacted as well. No OTP feelings to be found here, sorry.

When I read R/Hr, I can feel the author butting in. A sign of good writing is when you don’t feel like something is mechanic, as if the writer is mechanically tweaking your emotions as you’re going. That was exactly what happened with H/G and R/Hr for me.

Ugh this is so perfect I can't even handle it. Just. Slow clap. That's all.

PS sorry I'm always all over your comment section with my feelings lol it's just my love for these kids has been reignited in a major way and I get word vomit. It's a problem.
Sunny: HP JK on crak!sunny_serenity on December 27th, 2010 05:55 am (UTC)
The things they say/do to each other are truly meant to do some damage. Wicked spiteful damage and I'm supposed to fall for that? Uhm, no. I don't buy it no matter how hard you're trying to sell.

Comment away darling... I kinda totally love that others ~feel the same as I.

borg_princessborg_princess on December 26th, 2010 09:28 am (UTC)


Emma/Dan spam!



CUTE BBs ARE SO CUUUUTE! ♥








Edited at 2010-12-26 09:29 am (UTC)
Sunny: HP dancesunny_serenity on December 27th, 2010 05:56 am (UTC)
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Cuteness. I love that he's at least trying to dance, hehe.